English Setter Recall / e- collar recommendations
Hi Guys Im looking for advice to do with a english setter if anyone could hep it would be great.
I got him when he was around 7/8 weeks he was dumped from a car and a rescue had him then he came to me. He is now 8 months of age. He was coming back to the whistle 50% of the time in enclosed spaces with no other distractions however this has now completely stopped.
The problem is he does not listen to me and I seem to have no relationship with the dog what so ever. He does not get excited to see me when I feed him, bring him for walks etc, more interested in barging past me to get out and try and get off.
He recently broke the lead when I had him in the field and bolted. No amount of shouting or calling could get him even to turn his head it was head down and ran. Managed to catch him after half an hour of chasing and a mountainy ewe had cornered him in a drain.He has never been left off the lead apart from that incident because he has no recall what so ever even as a pup he was independent. He is kept on a chain during the day ( He had a run but ate through the chainlink).
The issue is he now has become a terror to have around the place. He cannot be left out around on his own ( I live on a farm) as he will bolt and chase and try and kill whatever he can find, cats, horses, cattle, sheep. He is a nightmare on the lead charging and pulling and wont walk nicely beside me.
Does anyone have any recommendations of trainers in the Waterford area that are used to these type of dogs ? I was with a trainer but it wasn't working out and we were getting no where. Or any other recommendations on how to get him to listen to me ( Food treats don't work) or the use of e-collors if these would work ?
I am thinking of getting him neutered would this calm him down make him listen more ?
Jenny Nolan ! !
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 Hi,
Firstly, please forget about the e-collar.
Secondly, please bear in mind you are no longer deal with a puppy - who may at a younger age rely more on social closeness. You are now dealing with a "teenager" who is in the developmental stage of becoming independent.
Thirdly - and this is a guess - I assume you did not enforce or keep up the intensity of a recall after the first/initial successful recalls?
And ... if you were kept on a chain without the option to run run run run run ... what would YOU do if your lead broke?
Forget e-collars and treats.
Strong-minded dogs may or may not come for a treat. Some dogs may come as close as arm's length and then charge away knowing right well the radius within which you are able to grab them.
Neutering is always a good idea - but NOT to change behaviour. Your boy may be physically matured but is clearly not mentally matured. Please do NOT neuter him before he has found his own, mature feet.
Here are a few thoughts of what I would do.
i) Think about why it is important for you to have a dog with recall. There are dogs with perfect recall who may still fail in certain situations (bitch in heat, cat to chase, scent to follow).
Get your priorities right - and in the correct order.
Start building trust in the dog.
ii) He's chained during the day - not a good idea.
Do you have an alternative, e.g. an unused horse's stable/box or a walled in pig pen he can spend his time in?
iii) Where would be a safe/escape proof environment to let him run free? A fenced in sports field/tennis court after hours, an indoor arena in an equestrian centre? Put on your thinking cap and find a local alternative.
iv) Make him work. Setters are working dogs. So let him
work for his food, scatter it around the place, hide it, wrap it up, you hide with the food bowl and have someone hold him while you tease him to find you - make feeding time interesting and exciting for him. This will make treats redundant.
v) Still no ideas where to let him run? Get a harness and run him along your bicycle. If you have a horse, get him used to exercise along the horse to bring him out hacking.
Trainers in Waterford? No idea, but there is a man called Mick McCarthy in Cork who runs a Search and Rescue Unit. He's a good dog head on him, you'll find him via google and search/trailing dogs.
Good luck.
Bea
Bea
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 Hi Bea, thank you for the reply.
I should have mentioned he gets a hour walk in the morning before I go to work, then a half hour walk when I come home. I have a fully enclosed large run for the chickens about the size of a full tennis court and a half that he gets a good hour of a run in the evening when the hens are gone to bed with me throwing tennis balls sticks etc with the other dogs to wear him out in the evening before he is put to bed( In his dog crate in the spare room with the others who have their own crates/beds)
I wasn't a fan of the e-collar but it was suggested to me by another person I think it could make him worse if anything so Il dump that Idea :)
Im in the process of getting a bar dog run bought as he ate through those pet safe ones so as soon as that comes he will be off the chain.
Maybe I did however let the intensity of the recalling drop once he had got it go to every 2nd or 3rd day instead of every day my fault. would you recommend changing to a different whistle instead of using the old one that he no longer comes back to or sticking with it ?
I was going to let him get to a year old before neutering which will be in September so that he would be fully grown in your opinion would this be okay to go ahead or come back to at a later date.
I will try and contact the man in cork.
Thank you for your help.
Jenny Nolan ! !
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 First at all, I would have him checked out completely by the vet to make sure he's absolutely fine in order to rule out any medical issues.
Secondly, what do you feed him on?
If processed food, please check the crude protein % on the feed, if it is too high, this may produce him being more highly strung than he wants to be and he needs an outlet for the excess energy.
If he lives the live of a non-working dog, an active pet-type, then 18-21% is sufficient. Unfortunately, a lot of processed dog feeds even for pet dogs come with 22%+.
Using a completely different whistle/command/cue would be a good idea. I think it is vital you need to make him pay you attention in the first place, hence above feeding suggestions, e.g. make him work for them. Start the routine with a "begin" word and absolutely end it with a "finish" word so the dog knows what is expected of him.
You have him settled into different routines already during the day, which is vital so the day becomes predictable for him. Do accompany all these activities (beginning/end) with cue words.
You should then try and decide on a command which you want to use for him to focus on you. Make sure all your cue words are different and cannot be mixed up by the dog.
Will send you a PM with a little exercise you can start straight away.
Good luck.
Bea
Bea
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 i had them before n got rid,it took too long for them to start to work they,d nearly be 2 or 3 before they,d begin to work,, now i keep pointers much easier to control,, but i def would never use them e collars, bring em up onto a bog n let off the lead, he,ll come back to ya after an hour or so, setters are full of energy, not a couch potato,anyway hes a young teen now. if your looking for a quick way out theres not one, time, patience,and not to loose your temper GOOD LUCK YOUR PROBABLY GONNA NEED IT
FERRET
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 get a choke chain n strong short lead, bring dog out try keep em beside you, pull fast n hard n tell em to sit or use the word hup,n put em in the sit position, repeat this again n again,till dog does it,if you can master this theres hope it gets easy after that this is lesson 1, only 5 more to go
FERRET
Saturday, August 9th, 2014 Ferret,
Each to their own, but a lot of breeds are late maturing, that does not necessarily mean they possess a "baby brain" and cannot be worked or trained.
But regardless the breed or mix of a dog, I would not let them run around uncontrolled for an hour, be it in a bog or elsewhere.
Your advise to use a choke chain and to pull hard ... is supposed to achieve what? "Training" a dog something so simple as to sit through physical pain is totally uncalled for.
You can get a 8 week old puppy to sit without any force, no collar, no lead with a little patience within 2 days. The moment a pup is old enough to look up and make eye contact with the handler is the time to start training (much younger pups cannot cock their heads far enough).
Considering most people don't know how to "properly" use forceful methods like choke or prongs (most collared dogs I see are done the wrong way round, running it under the dog's neck) or indeed the slip leads with the stoppers and considering not even sales people in pet shops can advise properly. For example, some dog owners actually use slip leads to "teach" a dog to walk properly on the lead ... others, like you, advise to jerk on the lead.
Not so good for the dog's neck region, is it?
Bea
Sunday, August 10th, 2014 bea,, this is not an 8 week old pup its an 8 or 9 month old young dog, that will not return to the recall, im not suggestion she use force but the dog needs to know who,s in charge,, obviously you,ve never trained a young head strong,dog before, well ive trained quite a few, n have some of the best trained shooting dogs in the midlands, n when i blow my whistle for the dog to come in they come in ,or if i whistle to stop, turn,drop,em he,ll do it,but what would i know.......but hey if your way works for you , then your happy,,,,,,my dogs are bred for 1 thing that is to point birds n thats what they do, but i want to be able to controll him too, ITS CALLED TRAINING,but theres always someone out there that knows it all
FERRET
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014 "obviously you,ve never trained a young head strong,dog before, well ive trained quite a few"
Hmmm. Not head strong, but commonly called "stubborn" (Norwegian Elkhounds, Bassett, Bloodhounds, Otterhounds) ... but then it's all in the eye and the attitude of the beholder. I have trained blind, deaf and deaf-blind dogs, too.
I would not blame my incompetence to get inside a dog's head on the dog, if the dog is able to outsmart me and I am too ... ehm ... restricted in my methods to adapt, then it's not the dog's fault.
It is interesting to read though that a "trainer" as successful as you had to "get rid" of a type dog as it took too long. When you are referring to "my dogs" you are referring to pointers - not exactly a head strong type of dog (I should know we kept German Wirehaired Pointers back at home.
Personally, I would not consider pointers or training of same type as particularly challenging, but there you have it.
It is also interesting that you tar all dogs with the same brush, probably a linguistic oversight which is not your fault. In German, we differentiate in "hunting dogs" and "hunter's dogs", the hunter's dog working closely with the huntsman and in his immediate vicinity.
Then, some hunting dogs (would be more like hounds) are trained to work away from the hunter, such as tracking/trailing dogs. The point in their training is to MOVE AWAY from the handler. In Norway for example, Grey Norwegian Elkhounds can only be bred if they have hunted successfully - in either variant, both of which are acceptable. One will hunt off lead and the other on lead.
Interesting also is your reaction in your last sentence.
Care to elaborate?
Bea
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014 you would,t know a good dog if he hit you in the face
FERRET
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014 or better still,seeing your so good at training dogs why dont you train that dog for jenny,
FERRET
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014 What's with the passive aggressiveness?
I'd like to suggest you brush up your linguistic and / or typing skills and then we'll have an adult conversation on the matter of dogs.
I appreciate you are craving attention but this thread is about Jenny and her dog.
Bea
Friday, August 15th, 2014 i have never been aggresive in anyway shape or form to man or beast in my life ,, i rest my case
FERRET
Saturday, August 16th, 2014 sure if the dog was deaf / blind how would he see or hear you maybe you could learn sign language n teach it to em or learn mind control ha ha ha, id say ya could,nt teach a hen to cross the road, ha ha ha
FERRET
Thursday, September 4th, 2014
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English Setter Recall / e- collar recommendations
Hi Guys Im looking for advice to do with a english setter if anyone could hep it would be great.
I got him when he was around 7/8 weeks he was dumped from a car and a rescue had him then he came to me. He is now 8 months of age. He was coming back to the whistle 50% of the time in enclosed spaces with no other distractions however this has now completely stopped.
The problem is he does not listen to me and I seem to have no relationship with the dog what so ever. He does not get excited to see me when I feed him, bring him for walks etc, more interested in barging past me to get out and try and get off.
He recently broke the lead when I had him in the field and bolted. No amount of shouting or calling could get him even to turn his head it was head down and ran. Managed to catch him after half an hour of chasing and a mountainy ewe had cornered him in a drain.He has never been left off the lead apart from that incident because he has no recall what so ever even as a pup he was independent. He is kept on a chain during the day ( He had a run but ate through the chainlink).
The issue is he now has become a terror to have around the place. He cannot be left out around on his own ( I live on a farm) as he will bolt and chase and try and kill whatever he can find, cats, horses, cattle, sheep. He is a nightmare on the lead charging and pulling and wont walk nicely beside me.
Does anyone have any recommendations of trainers in the Waterford area that are used to these type of dogs ? I was with a trainer but it wasn't working out and we were getting no where. Or any other recommendations on how to get him to listen to me ( Food treats don't work) or the use of e-collors if these would work ?
I am thinking of getting him neutered would this calm him down make him listen more ?
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
Hi,
Firstly, please forget about the e-collar.
Secondly, please bear in mind you are no longer deal with a puppy - who may at a younger age rely more on social closeness. You are now dealing with a "teenager" who is in the developmental stage of becoming independent.
Thirdly - and this is a guess - I assume you did not enforce or keep up the intensity of a recall after the first/initial successful recalls?
And ... if you were kept on a chain without the option to run run run run run ... what would YOU do if your lead broke?
Forget e-collars and treats.
Strong-minded dogs may or may not come for a treat. Some dogs may come as close as arm's length and then charge away knowing right well the radius within which you are able to grab them.
Neutering is always a good idea - but NOT to change behaviour. Your boy may be physically matured but is clearly not mentally matured. Please do NOT neuter him before he has found his own, mature feet.
Here are a few thoughts of what I would do.
i) Think about why it is important for you to have a dog with recall. There are dogs with perfect recall who may still fail in certain situations (bitch in heat, cat to chase, scent to follow).
Get your priorities right - and in the correct order.
Start building trust in the dog.
ii) He's chained during the day - not a good idea.
Do you have an alternative, e.g. an unused horse's stable/box or a walled in pig pen he can spend his time in?
iii) Where would be a safe/escape proof environment to let him run free? A fenced in sports field/tennis court after hours, an indoor arena in an equestrian centre? Put on your thinking cap and find a local alternative.
iv) Make him work. Setters are working dogs. So let him
work for his food, scatter it around the place, hide it, wrap it up, you hide with the food bowl and have someone hold him while you tease him to find you - make feeding time interesting and exciting for him. This will make treats redundant.
v) Still no ideas where to let him run? Get a harness and run him along your bicycle. If you have a horse, get him used to exercise along the horse to bring him out hacking.
Trainers in Waterford? No idea, but there is a man called Mick McCarthy in Cork who runs a Search and Rescue Unit. He's a good dog head on him, you'll find him via google and search/trailing dogs.
Good luck.
Bea
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
Hi Bea, thank you for the reply.
I should have mentioned he gets a hour walk in the morning before I go to work, then a half hour walk when I come home. I have a fully enclosed large run for the chickens about the size of a full tennis court and a half that he gets a good hour of a run in the evening when the hens are gone to bed with me throwing tennis balls sticks etc with the other dogs to wear him out in the evening before he is put to bed( In his dog crate in the spare room with the others who have their own crates/beds)
I wasn't a fan of the e-collar but it was suggested to me by another person I think it could make him worse if anything so Il dump that Idea :)
Im in the process of getting a bar dog run bought as he ate through those pet safe ones so as soon as that comes he will be off the chain.
Maybe I did however let the intensity of the recalling drop once he had got it go to every 2nd or 3rd day instead of every day my fault. would you recommend changing to a different whistle instead of using the old one that he no longer comes back to or sticking with it ?
I was going to let him get to a year old before neutering which will be in September so that he would be fully grown in your opinion would this be okay to go ahead or come back to at a later date.
I will try and contact the man in cork.
Thank you for your help.
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
First at all, I would have him checked out completely by the vet to make sure he's absolutely fine in order to rule out any medical issues.
Secondly, what do you feed him on?
If processed food, please check the crude protein % on the feed, if it is too high, this may produce him being more highly strung than he wants to be and he needs an outlet for the excess energy.
If he lives the live of a non-working dog, an active pet-type, then 18-21% is sufficient. Unfortunately, a lot of processed dog feeds even for pet dogs come with 22%+.
Using a completely different whistle/command/cue would be a good idea. I think it is vital you need to make him pay you attention in the first place, hence above feeding suggestions, e.g. make him work for them. Start the routine with a "begin" word and absolutely end it with a "finish" word so the dog knows what is expected of him.
You have him settled into different routines already during the day, which is vital so the day becomes predictable for him. Do accompany all these activities (beginning/end) with cue words.
You should then try and decide on a command which you want to use for him to focus on you. Make sure all your cue words are different and cannot be mixed up by the dog.
Will send you a PM with a little exercise you can start straight away.
Good luck.
Bea
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
i had them before n got rid,it took too long for them to start to work they,d nearly be 2 or 3 before they,d begin to work,, now i keep pointers much easier to control,, but i def would never use them e collars, bring em up onto a bog n let off the lead, he,ll come back to ya after an hour or so, setters are full of energy, not a couch potato,anyway hes a young teen now. if your looking for a quick way out theres not one, time, patience,and not to loose your temper GOOD LUCK YOUR PROBABLY GONNA NEED IT
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
get a choke chain n strong short lead, bring dog out try keep em beside you, pull fast n hard n tell em to sit or use the word hup,n put em in the sit position, repeat this again n again,till dog does it,if you can master this theres hope it gets easy after that this is lesson 1, only 5 more to go
Saturday, August 9th, 2014
Ferret,
Each to their own, but a lot of breeds are late maturing, that does not necessarily mean they possess a "baby brain" and cannot be worked or trained.
But regardless the breed or mix of a dog, I would not let them run around uncontrolled for an hour, be it in a bog or elsewhere.
Your advise to use a choke chain and to pull hard ... is supposed to achieve what? "Training" a dog something so simple as to sit through physical pain is totally uncalled for.
You can get a 8 week old puppy to sit without any force, no collar, no lead with a little patience within 2 days. The moment a pup is old enough to look up and make eye contact with the handler is the time to start training (much younger pups cannot cock their heads far enough).
Considering most people don't know how to "properly" use forceful methods like choke or prongs (most collared dogs I see are done the wrong way round, running it under the dog's neck) or indeed the slip leads with the stoppers and considering not even sales people in pet shops can advise properly. For example, some dog owners actually use slip leads to "teach" a dog to walk properly on the lead ... others, like you, advise to jerk on the lead.
Not so good for the dog's neck region, is it?
Sunday, August 10th, 2014
bea,, this is not an 8 week old pup its an 8 or 9 month old young dog, that will not return to the recall, im not suggestion she use force but the dog needs to know who,s in charge,, obviously you,ve never trained a young head strong,dog before, well ive trained quite a few, n have some of the best trained shooting dogs in the midlands, n when i blow my whistle for the dog to come in they come in ,or if i whistle to stop, turn,drop,em he,ll do it,but what would i know.......but hey if your way works for you , then your happy,,,,,,my dogs are bred for 1 thing that is to point birds n thats what they do, but i want to be able to controll him too, ITS CALLED TRAINING,but theres always someone out there that knows it all
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014
"obviously you,ve never trained a young head strong,dog before, well ive trained quite a few"
Hmmm. Not head strong, but commonly called "stubborn" (Norwegian Elkhounds, Bassett, Bloodhounds, Otterhounds) ... but then it's all in the eye and the attitude of the beholder. I have trained blind, deaf and deaf-blind dogs, too.
I would not blame my incompetence to get inside a dog's head on the dog, if the dog is able to outsmart me and I am too ... ehm ... restricted in my methods to adapt, then it's not the dog's fault.
It is interesting to read though that a "trainer" as successful as you had to "get rid" of a type dog as it took too long. When you are referring to "my dogs" you are referring to pointers - not exactly a head strong type of dog (I should know we kept German Wirehaired Pointers back at home.
Personally, I would not consider pointers or training of same type as particularly challenging, but there you have it.
It is also interesting that you tar all dogs with the same brush, probably a linguistic oversight which is not your fault. In German, we differentiate in "hunting dogs" and "hunter's dogs", the hunter's dog working closely with the huntsman and in his immediate vicinity.
Then, some hunting dogs (would be more like hounds) are trained to work away from the hunter, such as tracking/trailing dogs. The point in their training is to MOVE AWAY from the handler. In Norway for example, Grey Norwegian Elkhounds can only be bred if they have hunted successfully - in either variant, both of which are acceptable. One will hunt off lead and the other on lead.
Interesting also is your reaction in your last sentence.
Care to elaborate?
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014
you would,t know a good dog if he hit you in the face
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014
or better still,seeing your so good at training dogs why dont you train that dog for jenny,
Tuesday, August 12th, 2014
What's with the passive aggressiveness?
I'd like to suggest you brush up your linguistic and / or typing skills and then we'll have an adult conversation on the matter of dogs.
I appreciate you are craving attention but this thread is about Jenny and her dog.
Friday, August 15th, 2014
i have never been aggresive in anyway shape or form to man or beast in my life ,, i rest my case
Saturday, August 16th, 2014
sure if the dog was deaf / blind how would he see or hear you maybe you could learn sign language n teach it to em or learn mind control ha ha ha, id say ya could,nt teach a hen to cross the road, ha ha ha
Thursday, September 4th, 2014